May 2, 2016

Were the Celts originally Circassians?




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  1. recently i got an interest on circassian people. on a forum, i saw about a post mentioning the parallels between the celtic and circassian mythologies. when i looked for what its about about, i found something more interesting: the circaesir celt people. it can be very inspiring thread if people having better knowledge than me can contribute. i put things together very amateur way. it would be good if someone may interpret or paraphrase me better. i wonder your comments.

    1 - the circassian people were considered to be the epitome of whiteness in history and both circassians and gaelic people are still the whitest/palest looking two people in the world. both groups have abundance of fair red hair, freckles and light eyes, british travellers wrote much on circassian "glaring red hair" (please google) though circassian women were more famous for their luxuriant blond hair and blue eyes (also google please) in most accounts. those with dark hair in both groups can have very similar phenotypes. here some examples:

    ethnic 1st typical circassian woman named elcin sangu (actress in turkey), ethnicity ref: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/kiralik-a...ranim-29969255)



    ethnic 1st typical irish woman

    ethnic 2nd typical circassian woman named zerrin arbas (miss turkey 1965), ethnicity ref:http://www.yerelgundem.com/haberler/...z_kizlari.html

    ethnic 2nd typical irish woman named enya (singer)

    2 - celts or circaesir are thought to be related to circassians while the basks or basques are thought to be related to abasks (abazgi, abaza, abkhaz) (see euscaro-caucasian linguistic relations) (interesting news on basques and abkhazians:http://hurarsiv.hurriyet.com.tr/gost...06&yazarid=106http://arsiv.takvim.com.tr//2007/01/11/gnc101.html)



    2- "the circassian circle" is a very old scottish traditional dance.

    3- celtic theme musician and ethnic gaelic canadian loreena mckennitt believes herself to be circassian origin, admires the culture and music and visited circassian minority's several villages in turkey. she dances circassian traditional dance here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JalqYLMMYz4

    4- celtic society formed instances of matriarchy in history. the circassian society was also once matriarchal. and the women still has the highest place in society according to circassian traditions. in both, even ancient women had equal power and rights. horses are very important objects in both cultures. and i found sources talking about circassian high kings of ireland.

    5- saying of matriarchy, i wanted to share this - you perhaps heard about circassian amazons (meaning moon mother in circassian), women warriors : "The moon, since time immemorial, has been the symbol of everything that is feminine and beautiful. The Amazons were not just beautiful women who led an untamed life. They also used to worship the moon. Their name may have resulted from contact with the ancient Circassians who were known to worship the moon too. The word Amazon in the ancient Circassian language meant "moon-mother" or "mother of the forest".

    here's the map of celts in 1-5 centuries bc (look at black sea region)

    here's the map of circassians' homeland (look at north west black sea also see amazons in the east)


    6- there was resemblance between ancient Circassian priests and Celtic Druids (google it). circassians were christian from 3rd to 19th century. mythologic similarities are too much to write here. anyone can google it.

    7- i asked if the proto-celts (part of ancestry of today's scottish, irish people) circassian but it can also be vice versa. there are many accounts considering north west caucasian (not eastern ones) language (meaning abkhazo-adyghean/called pontic or circassian) may be derived from celtic or gomerian source due to many common words between isolated circassian and into-european celtic languages.

    8- check this link: https://www.facebook.com/Ancient.Cel...0599686669956/ i copt the text from a book which was also shared on a facebook page: "The Celts are Circaesir from Circaesya, who lived on the Sea of Grass in what is now west Kazakhstan until late in the second millennium B.C. They were by their own definition a linguistic group, but now they are a culture. Contrary to popular belief, they had nothing to do with European inhabitants known to archaeologists as the 'Beaker folk' and 'Battle Axe people'. The 'Urnfield people' farther east were Circaesir, and obviously related to the Celts. Their descendants integrated with Celts in central Europe.

    Tradition suggests that the Celts left the Sea of Grass in a dispute with the Scythian confederacy, of which they seem to have been members. It seems the Scythians threw their weight around a little too much with their allies. They would take over the Cimmerians living in what is now the Ukraine, but shortly after the middle of the first millennium they would get their comeuppance. Sarmatians from the southeast would invade, possibly supported by disgruntled members of the confederacy.

    By this time Celts had dominated central Europe for several centuries. They had immediately become powerful there, in lands occupied by the Faan (see 'Arthur'), for they were a warrior people and the Faan were gentle. They were more powerful than the Circaesir who already lived there, and they could have defeated the Germanics moving south from Scandinavia. It has long been a mystery why the latter took over from them. It is likely that the Germanics from Scandinavia clashed with the Faan, who assumed that the Celts were in on the attack. The Faan did not mind being dominated, but extermination was another matter. I believe that the Celts of central Europe moved south and west because they had no intention of fighting someone else's war.

    By the time the Roman Empire was expanding, the Celts were most concentrated in what is now France. They may have been the catalyst to the Roman Empire, because at the beginning of the fourth century B.C. they had (1) sacked Rome, (2) pulled on the Senators' beards and (3) left without suspecting they had just made an enemy that would one day destroy them.

    The name 'Celt' is a misnomer, by the way, but it has stuck and I will continue to use it. 'Keltoi' was a Greek word meaning 'uncivilized' and it referred to an Alpine people who may have been related to central Asians. Probably Celts came in contact with these people during their stay in central Europe, and accidentally became confused with them. It is also likely that they integrated with them. The proper name for the Celts may be 'Gaedheals'. Certainly the Gaels, a people of the same kind who took the Mediterranean route out of Circaesya, were descended from a man named Gaedheal Glas, son of Agnoman, who was in turn descended from Magog, son of Japheth. But people from the entire cultural group are now referred to as Celts, and there's no going back. Throughout their history the Chaldees, Faan, Athenians, Volsungrs and Germanic Vikings who joined the Gaedheals have been referred to inclusively as Celts, which creates quite a confusion for historians trying to trace the origin of the Gaedheals themselves.

    There were many Circaesir cultural groups, of which the Celts were only one. They were all military in character, for Circaesya was a war zone. I will explain why. About fifteen thousand years ago, a huge migration began out of the prairie which is now the Sahara desert. People we would now describe as Oriental may have been pushed out of the Middle East by the exodus behind them. They moved northeast until some of them turned south into China, displacing the people who had been living there and pushing them south to join relatives in Melanesia, Papua/New Guinea and Australia. Groups preceding and following the Orientals pushed on to North America, and the groups behind remained in Siberia and Mongolia.

    Behind these groups were the Aesir. These people had features in common with those who had gone before them, but they must have been a different branch of the family tree because they had light hair and eyes. They settled on the steppes of central Asia, and the entire continent has been named after their land, Aesya. After the Aesir came the Circaesir, who remained to the southwest of Aesya, spreading outward in both directions as an alternative to moving on in a train that was becoming very uncomfortable indeed. The name 'Circaesya' may not have originally referred to this area as a whole. (There exists a theory that it was derived from 'Zirghizia', one of its regions through which all of them passed.) However, the term came to apply to the lands between Aesya and Arabaya.



    A tidal wave shortly before 3000 B.C. desertified the north African plain where the ancestors of the Circaesir had once lived. On one side of Circaesya, Aesya would not support more people, and on the other the Arab nations were pushing to leave the desert. The Circaesir put a sock in the largest ever human migration, and Circaesya became a war zone as its nations fought for their land.

    The Celts were only one of the many nations living in Circaesya. They were in the hottest area of conflict, the Sea of Grass (the plains of the Ukraine and Kazakhstan) directly along the migratory route. Just south of them the people of the Iranian plateau also felt the pressure. For thousands of years life had been easier for those Circaesir to the northwest who had spread along the Danube. While their relatives on the Sea of Grass had retained the pastoral life, the Danubians had learned agriculture. But during the second millennium B.C. they too felt the pressure of overpopulation. Many of them moved south to the Mediterranean, conquering the Mesopotamian cultures there (predominantly Hamite), and becoming profoundly affected by them.

    Meanwhile on the Sea of Grass life had been tough. Around 4000 B.C. a large number of Circaesir descended from Gomer, son of Japheth, moved north into an area called Vanya (now western Russia). At an early date (definitely more than ten thousand years ago) the people of Vanya –called the Vanir, precursors to modern Finns– had fought the Aesir to a stalemate and had made a truce, agreeing that they would live west of the Don River in Vanya if the Aesir would confine Aesya to the land east of the Don River. When the Circaesir descended from Gomer arrived in Vanya thousands of years later, they took over the area and developed a culture distinct and separate from anything in Circaesya. They became Germanic, and not to be confused with the Circaesir despite the physical resemblance. A group of Aesir called Volsungrs had already moved north and west into Scandinavia. Late in the fourth millennium they clashed with Germanics who were moving in on them from Vanya.

    Some people of the same type as the Germanics remained Circaesir. Their ruling class called themselves 'Aria', meaning 'noble', and their legends suggest that they came from central Asia, though this may have been a retelling of the Ancient Ones descending from a mountain peak. They worshipped Aries or Marduk, the supervisor of the fallen angels, and an 'Arian' was a descendant of Aries.

    During the second millennium these Circaesir were forced to move southwest against the migratory tide. They took over the Iranian plateau and conquered the Dravidian civilization of India. Closely related to the Germanics of the north and to the Achaeans of Greece, they referred to their ancestor Japheth as 'Djapatischta'. Those who moved into Persia were converted to worship of the Heavenly Host, but those who went to India continued to worship Marduk.

    I have mentioned only a few of the Circaesir in this article. They had the same strong build, medium height and small features, but their colouring varied greatly. Their warlike history made them a dominant type, but they were expert at preventing conflict and did not destroy cultures that cooperated with them. Unfortunately they had no mechanism for halting a war in mid-course. This was because when they were living by their own laws, if their sophisticated negotiating skills could not prevent a war then there was no alternative. It must be remembered that in many countries they proved beneficial to the people they conquered, for the Circaesir protected their own."
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    No, just stahp
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    Default More pictures of Circassians

    more full ethnic circassian people:
















    (circassian boy and the israeli press)




    david shawgen, circassian man (shawgen means priest in circassian and is one of the most common circassian surnames)


    Last edited by itsalex; 11-27-2015 at 10:34 AM.
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    Default More pictures of Circassians

    More full ethnic Circassians:


    the picture is from a news and the text describing typical circassian woman translates (circassian woman who are fiery red headed, intense blue eyed, very fine thin)
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    How many R1b is there in Circassians ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibericus View Post
    How many R1b is there in Circassians ?
    Yunusbaev 2011: 7.1% r1b (adyghe) 12.1% r1b (abkhaz)
    pontic speaking northwest caucasians (adyghe and abkhaz only) are G, R1a, I. mostly G. J is the third and percentage is very little.

    (adyghe is the native name of circassians, by the way) the others (north east caucasians) are not circassians.

    caspian speaking northeast caucasians (nakh people (chechens and ingush) 85-90% J2)
    caspian speaking northeast caucasians (dagestanis: Lezgins: 30% R1b, Tabassarans: 40% R1b, Avars: 50-65% R1b, the other percentage are J1 for them)

    by looking at their y-dna hablogroups, north caucasians vary greatly. northeast caucasians especially dagestani have significant r1b than north-west caucasians who have other more european markers.
    Last edited by itsalex; 11-26-2015 at 05:40 PM.
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    so by y-dna, i cannot judge well because north europeans were originally (i mean initially) r1a than I for instance. by autosomal dna also it would be illogical to compare because even if celtic and circassian people are centuries ago from the same tribal fellowship, i cannot expect “today’s” people have similar autosomal dna. celtic people today have almost half west european half north european admixtures since they heavily mixed with north europeans for centuries. but they kept their r1b very high because they didn't allow newcomer tribes much. and as to circassian autosomal dna, they also can have very high north european especially in diaspora (because they mix less) but they have quite little west/south west european admixture both in homeland and diaspora. by the way, abkhaz is adyghe’s only known original relative because they were once same tribal fellowship and their language are dialects of same language actually but for centuries these dialects changed considerably so we considered different languages as adyghe and abkhaz. also abkhaz in homeland mix with georgians and have different autosomal dna than unmixed abkhaz in turkey who is more close to actual circassians. other north caucasians are not original relatives of circassians and abkhazians. they just lived in the same area, had similar cultures, they learnt each other's dances and gave a few loan-words to each other, and especially following the deportation of circassians from homeland in west russia in the late 19th century, the remaining (10%) circassians in russia started to heavily mix with other north caucasians and had relatively similar autosomal dna and occasionally have similar phenotypes (but totally different y-dna) whereas in diaspora where 90% of circassians today live (such as in turkey, usa, israel) they are very isolated and more than half of them have light eyes. (i mean other north caucasians can have these features too but circassians are the ones who originally had highest north european admixture in the region). additionally, blond, red and light brown hair in circassian diaspora are the most common ones. those in russia have kept their historical very pale skin as well. unless mixed they only have extra pale or milk white skin. but in terms of hair color, diaspora have much more percentage of blond and red because in countries like israel they can't mix with anyone except each other. so their phenotype is a bit different than today's north caucasians. but again as a whole, it doest matter whether in diaspora or historical homeland, most irish and scottish people can pass as circassians very well. their skin, light eyes and face types. even basques can pass too although they look a bit different.
    Last edited by itsalex; 11-27-2015 at 10:36 AM.
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    Before converting to Islam, Circassians had their own religion mixed with Christianity. Their paganism had a lot to do with trees (another similarity with Celts).
    Concerning pigmentation, I agree with the assumption that before contacts with nomadic peoples, average pigmentation of Circassians was (possibly considerably) lighter than it is today.


    I'm not sure if even the lightest ones look particularly Celtic though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumata View Post
    Before converting to Islam, Circassians had their own religion mixed with Christianity. Their paganism had a lot to do with trees (another similarity with Celts).
    Concerning pigmentation, I agree with the assumption that before contacts with nomadic peoples, average pigmentation of Circassians was (possibly considerably) lighter than it is today.


    I'm not sure if even the lightest ones look particularly Celtic though.
    yes i read about the trees. it was much lighter than it is today but even today they mostly have very pale skin as in the pictures i put. especially in diaspora (normally you would expect it opposite) they are extremely light. by the way the picture you shared is from the Jordanian movie "Cherkess" and the man is Circassian actor and the woman in the picture is not circassian but Bedouin from Jordan (as you see from her native costume). the movie's topic is the love between a circassian man and a bedouin woman and how this unexceptional event made their families very angry. but i think you already know about this and wanted to show the picture of contact with nomadics but again its rare by looking at majority.
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    Default circassians

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumata View Post
    Before converting to Islam, Circassians had their own religion mixed with Christianity. Their paganism had a lot to do with trees (another similarity with Celts).
    Concerning pigmentation, I agree with the assumption that before contacts with nomadic peoples, average pigmentation of Circassians was (possibly considerably) lighter than it is today.
    this is how unmixed circassians in diaspora (turkey) look like. circassians in turkey are the ethnic group which significantly increases the country's blond and red hair and gray blue green eye percentage most than any other fair ethnic groups living in the country (source from university anthropologst: http://t24.com.tr/haber/atalarimiz-s...iyor-mu,276494)


    (elcin sangu, circassian, ethnicity ref: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/kiralik-a...ranim-29969255)
    (muserref akay (senay akay's paternal aunt), circassian, ref:http://www.sabah.com.tr/kultur_sanat...etini-acikladi)
    (sahnaz cakiralp, circassian, ref: https://twitter.com/SahnazCakiralp/s...16858705743873)


    (emel ozugur, circassian)
    (canan gerede, circassian)
    (setenay inal, circassian)
    (sezgi sena akay, circassian, ref: http://www.dipnot.tv/sena-akay-hedef...abilmek/63596/)
    (burcu esmersoy, circassian, ref: http://www.sporx.com/hak-etmedigimi-...SXHBQ106390SXQ)




    (deniz akkaya, circassian)

    also as their circassian clans written on the internet, of the last 11, 4 of them are full kabardian, 2 of them full badzakh, 2 of them full sapsugh, 1 of them half ubykh half kabardian, 1 of them half hatuqwai half kabardian. 1 of them is a quarter arab so 10 of them are full circassian)

    second part

    eren vurdem, full circassian from kabardian clan:








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